ArkBird
06-08 12:13 AM
Isn't it a sad irony that we are now celebrating the demise of the much anticipated CIR...which was supposed to have solved all our issues...
Any idea what's in store for the future...
May be a "personal edition" of CIR with Skill Immigration provision.. They (read big boys) need H1B desperately so they might put lipstick on pig by addiing SKILL provisions....
Who knows.. US politics is beyond any logic..
Any idea what's in store for the future...
May be a "personal edition" of CIR with Skill Immigration provision.. They (read big boys) need H1B desperately so they might put lipstick on pig by addiing SKILL provisions....
Who knows.. US politics is beyond any logic..
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Pineapple
04-27 07:56 AM
read this:
Congressional Dems Say No Immigration Bill Anytime Soon - The Gaggle Blog - Newsweek.com (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thegaggle/archive/2010/04/26/congressional-dems-say-no-immigration-bill-anytime-soon.aspx?hpid=topnews)
Congressional Dems Say No Immigration Bill Anytime Soon - The Gaggle Blog - Newsweek.com (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thegaggle/archive/2010/04/26/congressional-dems-say-no-immigration-bill-anytime-soon.aspx?hpid=topnews)
atlfp
04-09 03:39 PM
I guess Berkeleybee was talking about me....I posted a few theories in another thread regarding PACE act.
I certainly understand the IV has done a lot and am very excited about what you have achieved. Not sure how you view it, but I think posting my view in the forum is also a form of support. It may not be as much as you wanted, but nevertheless it by no mean is saying what you did was wrong, it's just some thing I thought about and I thought it might be worth to bring up. But If this bothers you then I have no problem to shut up.
Not sure why IV chose to lock up live update threading to member only though. Growing number of members is definitely good, but I am not sure about forcing people to register to read. People participant when there is a passion in it, forcing they into it more or less drive the passion away.
Just my 2 cents.
All,
Just to put this issue to bed once and for all. IV is committed to bringing its goals into legislation -- we are not wedded to any particular piece of legislation. If Plan A doesn't work, there is Plan B, C and D. Each with its own advantages and disadvantages.
There have been some people who have been saying "Comprehensive reform is dead IV should work on PACE/Poster's favorite option."
(1) It is not certain that CIR is dead. We are not about to toss it aside before the Senate has.
(2) IV is fully prepared for PACE -- we have studied all of PACE's provisons (have the theorists even done this?). Did you happen to notice that one of the co-sponsors of PACE has already offered an amendment for us? We also have support from other co-sponsors.
(3) Our amendments show that we have support no matter which legislation goes forward -- we have to shore up this support and make sure we get more for floor votes.
BTW, I notice that some of our new theorists became members only a few days ago, probably to read the live update threads, and just a few days after that they start opining about what IV should do. ;-) Have they done anything with/for IV: volunteer, contribute, send webfaxes? I doubt it.
Note to new members: please visit our Resources section and familiarize yourself with the material there, at the very least you'll see we have been doing our homework and we are not a one-theory-one-legislation group.
best,
Berkeleybee
I certainly understand the IV has done a lot and am very excited about what you have achieved. Not sure how you view it, but I think posting my view in the forum is also a form of support. It may not be as much as you wanted, but nevertheless it by no mean is saying what you did was wrong, it's just some thing I thought about and I thought it might be worth to bring up. But If this bothers you then I have no problem to shut up.
Not sure why IV chose to lock up live update threading to member only though. Growing number of members is definitely good, but I am not sure about forcing people to register to read. People participant when there is a passion in it, forcing they into it more or less drive the passion away.
Just my 2 cents.
All,
Just to put this issue to bed once and for all. IV is committed to bringing its goals into legislation -- we are not wedded to any particular piece of legislation. If Plan A doesn't work, there is Plan B, C and D. Each with its own advantages and disadvantages.
There have been some people who have been saying "Comprehensive reform is dead IV should work on PACE/Poster's favorite option."
(1) It is not certain that CIR is dead. We are not about to toss it aside before the Senate has.
(2) IV is fully prepared for PACE -- we have studied all of PACE's provisons (have the theorists even done this?). Did you happen to notice that one of the co-sponsors of PACE has already offered an amendment for us? We also have support from other co-sponsors.
(3) Our amendments show that we have support no matter which legislation goes forward -- we have to shore up this support and make sure we get more for floor votes.
BTW, I notice that some of our new theorists became members only a few days ago, probably to read the live update threads, and just a few days after that they start opining about what IV should do. ;-) Have they done anything with/for IV: volunteer, contribute, send webfaxes? I doubt it.
Note to new members: please visit our Resources section and familiarize yourself with the material there, at the very least you'll see we have been doing our homework and we are not a one-theory-one-legislation group.
best,
Berkeleybee
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guy03062
10-28 02:30 PM
AP renewal application Mailed: 10/06/08
Reached @ USCIS: 10/08/08
Check cashed: 10/23/08
AP Receipt notice received: 10/27/08
Reached @ USCIS: 10/08/08
Check cashed: 10/23/08
AP Receipt notice received: 10/27/08
more...
kartikiran
12-03 02:40 PM
Here is what I am going through.
On November 17th night I received the news that my father died. Since I did not have AP, I had submitted the AP applicatoin online that night and called the USCIS the next day morning. They bumped up the request to extreme emergency and said that some one will contact me. Since I didnt receive any call for a couple of hours I tried followup a couple of times with USCIS and no one was ready to help except for the standard statement that some one will contact me in 5 days. Then I went to the local office in Chicago, where they said that since the people who who work on AP have already left(it was 3 PM), they will give the AP the next day. I went the next day morninig but the front desk person called the Nebraska office and spoke to them for a while and said that the supervisor has my case infront of him and he will make a decision very soon and I was asked have some patience. It is December 2nd now and I am still waitng for their decision.
I have not seen my father in 5 years and couldnt see him for the last time because my stupidity in not applying for the AP in advance and the USICS's apathy.
Please take this as a lesson and have the AP applied ASAP.
I understand how tough it is to go through what you are going through. I know how it feels when a parent passes away and we are miles away from them.
I wish you had got your document before. But try calling the congressman/woman for more help on this. I understand the time has passed when your presence was desperately needed, but you still can visit home and be that pillar of support or a shoulder to cry on for your family members.
Take Care.
On November 17th night I received the news that my father died. Since I did not have AP, I had submitted the AP applicatoin online that night and called the USCIS the next day morning. They bumped up the request to extreme emergency and said that some one will contact me. Since I didnt receive any call for a couple of hours I tried followup a couple of times with USCIS and no one was ready to help except for the standard statement that some one will contact me in 5 days. Then I went to the local office in Chicago, where they said that since the people who who work on AP have already left(it was 3 PM), they will give the AP the next day. I went the next day morninig but the front desk person called the Nebraska office and spoke to them for a while and said that the supervisor has my case infront of him and he will make a decision very soon and I was asked have some patience. It is December 2nd now and I am still waitng for their decision.
I have not seen my father in 5 years and couldnt see him for the last time because my stupidity in not applying for the AP in advance and the USICS's apathy.
Please take this as a lesson and have the AP applied ASAP.
I understand how tough it is to go through what you are going through. I know how it feels when a parent passes away and we are miles away from them.
I wish you had got your document before. But try calling the congressman/woman for more help on this. I understand the time has passed when your presence was desperately needed, but you still can visit home and be that pillar of support or a shoulder to cry on for your family members.
Take Care.
snathan
02-17 08:03 PM
I am working in US from Feb 2007 to till date. I was on H1-B visa This H1-B petition is valid till 30 sep,2009. I am currently on project which ends on 31 March 2009 . Before that I want to change my employer .
Some ppl suggested me Transfer H1 with extention immediately. Some said that stay with current employer have extention and then transfer .
Is there any problem now a days for H1 Transfers ?
Please give me your valuable suggestions.
Thanks...
If you have all the papers in place and never be out of status, you can do tranfer now itself. If everything is in place, still if you get REF...its out of luck. In that case you might get RFE in extension also.
If fact you can do the transfer and extension at the same time. I did file in couple of weeks gape and both got approved.
Some ppl suggested me Transfer H1 with extention immediately. Some said that stay with current employer have extention and then transfer .
Is there any problem now a days for H1 Transfers ?
Please give me your valuable suggestions.
Thanks...
If you have all the papers in place and never be out of status, you can do tranfer now itself. If everything is in place, still if you get REF...its out of luck. In that case you might get RFE in extension also.
If fact you can do the transfer and extension at the same time. I did file in couple of weeks gape and both got approved.
more...
gc12292004
09-11 04:53 PM
Taken second FP on 09/03/2009 and waiting!!!
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MAEB2TR
09-04 10:29 AM
I-485 with EB2 PD Sep 06 send on July 18. Once I receive the RN, I will apply for I-140 with EB2 PD March 2003 and request to transfer my pending I-485 application to the newly filed I-140 petition since my PD is current in September.
more...
md2003
03-14 09:41 AM
If i140 is revoke by earlier employer , will it possible to port PD to new employer?.
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Krilnon
01-01 04:37 PM
Because the goal of this contest is to have circles move around in clever and interesting ways, you must only use circles. No other shapes or images will be allowed.
What about the gradient in the background of your sample entry?
What about the gradient in the background of your sample entry?
more...
ajay
09-17 08:31 AM
I also was in the same situation when I came back from India and used AP.
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lfadgyas
05-20 09:15 PM
I�m not a lawyer or attorney or anything official
-So you ended up in the US as a intercompany transfer on L1B and you are working for �A�. Probably you started to work for �A� around 1999 summer.
-L1b is expiring on Aug 29, 2001, but few days before they submit an extension, but there is no approval just some RFEs;
I assume you kept working after Aug 29, 2001 for the same company �A� still here in the US.
-After a year you applied for H1-B with company �B� on August 20, 2002 which is approved on Sep 2002 and you travel back home to have the visa stamped and you came back to the US and started working for �B� (on June 2003).
-Later you transferred your H1B and started to work for company �C� which is your current emp. Company �C� started your labor/gc process and you were able to file your case during the 2007 visa fiasco (when all categories were �current� for July or so ).
I believe that from Aug 29, 2001 till Sep 2002 (or till the date you left the country - but this does not really count for now I think) you were working with no USCIS authorization.
Based on the dates this is more than one year � there is some bar for this 3 or 10 years � that is the time you cannot reenter or apply for new visas etc. I guess . Your lawyer (any) should know this better.
Even if you applied for H1b afterward� and that process went ok - probably by this time they realized that there was an unauthorized employment before� I do not know that a correctly field H1 and later and approved LC and filed I485 can "cancel out" such a thing. Probably not.
This is definitely a �lawyer� case . You might would be able to show and prove that you unintentionally ended up with this gray period with your first employer (this would be hard though) and ever since you followed the immigration law. From your stand point (unfortunately this will be not the USCIS�s one ) you are here legally since 2003 June. This is already 7 years. You might can file for some relief - based on extra hardship or something - I do not know this side .
If this unauthorized employment issue is true then consult about the real chances you might have with a lawyer who knows this pretty well...
Good luck
-So you ended up in the US as a intercompany transfer on L1B and you are working for �A�. Probably you started to work for �A� around 1999 summer.
-L1b is expiring on Aug 29, 2001, but few days before they submit an extension, but there is no approval just some RFEs;
I assume you kept working after Aug 29, 2001 for the same company �A� still here in the US.
-After a year you applied for H1-B with company �B� on August 20, 2002 which is approved on Sep 2002 and you travel back home to have the visa stamped and you came back to the US and started working for �B� (on June 2003).
-Later you transferred your H1B and started to work for company �C� which is your current emp. Company �C� started your labor/gc process and you were able to file your case during the 2007 visa fiasco (when all categories were �current� for July or so ).
I believe that from Aug 29, 2001 till Sep 2002 (or till the date you left the country - but this does not really count for now I think) you were working with no USCIS authorization.
Based on the dates this is more than one year � there is some bar for this 3 or 10 years � that is the time you cannot reenter or apply for new visas etc. I guess . Your lawyer (any) should know this better.
Even if you applied for H1b afterward� and that process went ok - probably by this time they realized that there was an unauthorized employment before� I do not know that a correctly field H1 and later and approved LC and filed I485 can "cancel out" such a thing. Probably not.
This is definitely a �lawyer� case . You might would be able to show and prove that you unintentionally ended up with this gray period with your first employer (this would be hard though) and ever since you followed the immigration law. From your stand point (unfortunately this will be not the USCIS�s one ) you are here legally since 2003 June. This is already 7 years. You might can file for some relief - based on extra hardship or something - I do not know this side .
If this unauthorized employment issue is true then consult about the real chances you might have with a lawyer who knows this pretty well...
Good luck
more...
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gc28262
07-31 02:14 PM
Thank you for your prompt response
1. Since company did not send me to USA after getting h1b visa 32 months back. Can he take legal action to pay liquidated charges? as mentioned below in the agreement.
I don't know the details about the contract. Just complain to DOL. Your "employer" will be so busy defending themselves, they won't have any time left to come after you.
Extract from Agreement: If the employee terminates the agreement prior to the minimum period of 18 months, the employee will pay company liquidated charges of 4000 USD.
Liquidated damages ? Not sure how they have incurred some damages because of you. Since they claim to be your employer , they are supposed to pay you the salary all these years. Have they paid you all these years ?
2.Can New Jersy laws applicable in India to send a legal notice to me?
I am not a lawyer or one knowledgeable in law. Discuss with a lawyer in India and see whether your employer can do anything to you in India depending on the contract you signed. As for US side, you have nothing to worry.
3. Since I have not travelled to USA on H1B, Can I be called an Employee of that company who processed my H1B.
4. Can I take any legal action against him as he did not send me to USA despite the fact that I renewed the Bank Guarantee twice.
As for US, complaint to DOL. DOL will do the needful without you spending a paisa. For India, discuss with an Indian lawyer.
Pls answer the above 3 questions.
1. Since company did not send me to USA after getting h1b visa 32 months back. Can he take legal action to pay liquidated charges? as mentioned below in the agreement.
I don't know the details about the contract. Just complain to DOL. Your "employer" will be so busy defending themselves, they won't have any time left to come after you.
Extract from Agreement: If the employee terminates the agreement prior to the minimum period of 18 months, the employee will pay company liquidated charges of 4000 USD.
Liquidated damages ? Not sure how they have incurred some damages because of you. Since they claim to be your employer , they are supposed to pay you the salary all these years. Have they paid you all these years ?
2.Can New Jersy laws applicable in India to send a legal notice to me?
I am not a lawyer or one knowledgeable in law. Discuss with a lawyer in India and see whether your employer can do anything to you in India depending on the contract you signed. As for US side, you have nothing to worry.
3. Since I have not travelled to USA on H1B, Can I be called an Employee of that company who processed my H1B.
4. Can I take any legal action against him as he did not send me to USA despite the fact that I renewed the Bank Guarantee twice.
As for US, complaint to DOL. DOL will do the needful without you spending a paisa. For India, discuss with an Indian lawyer.
Pls answer the above 3 questions.
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shaikhshehzadali
07-08 05:51 PM
They took 20 k tilll last month and no match.
____________________
contributed $260 so far
How do u know that?
____________________
contributed $260 so far
How do u know that?
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slayer173314
10-25 03:36 PM
Anyone who filed in July still waiting for a receipt / rejection notice?
I filed on July 2nd - haven't heard anything yet.
I filed on July 2nd - haven't heard anything yet.
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snathan
09-17 09:11 AM
Yesterday my employer received notice that my co-workers I-140 was denied and when she went home she received denial notice for her I-485 too. She filed EB2 concurrent.
why your co-workers 140 was denied. Is it sub labour or she is the primary ?.
Thanks
why your co-workers 140 was denied. Is it sub labour or she is the primary ?.
Thanks
more...
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meridiani.planum
07-23 05:25 AM
Hi Thanks for your inputs.
But both the employers are consultant.
One is in Fremont CA and other in Pittsburg. Both are offering almost same salary.
So which should be an better option, if they have a similar better client list?
IMO both are fairly decent places to work. I work in the bay area and Fremont is close by. Lots of tech companies here, so in general job market is ok. However cost of living is very high. Certainly more than pittsburg.
I think its a fairly close call, I would tend a bit towards the Fremont one only because I guess I am a bit biased to the bay area :)
But both the employers are consultant.
One is in Fremont CA and other in Pittsburg. Both are offering almost same salary.
So which should be an better option, if they have a similar better client list?
IMO both are fairly decent places to work. I work in the bay area and Fremont is close by. Lots of tech companies here, so in general job market is ok. However cost of living is very high. Certainly more than pittsburg.
I think its a fairly close call, I would tend a bit towards the Fremont one only because I guess I am a bit biased to the bay area :)
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mayurcreation
04-18 08:05 AM
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN
This is to certify that Mr. XXX was full time employed with CompanyName from date to date as a Sr. Programmer Analyst.
During his tenure with us, he skillfully handled major responsibilities and found him to be hardworking and very productive.
Mr. XXX job duties and responsibilities include but are not limited to:
� Job duties and responsibilities from resume�
� Job duties and responsibilities from resume�
� Job duties and responsibilities from resume�
� Job duties and responsibilities from resume�
� Job duties and responsibilities from resume�
Please feel free to contact me for further information.
Sincerely,
{Name}
{Title}
This is to certify that Mr. XXX was full time employed with CompanyName from date to date as a Sr. Programmer Analyst.
During his tenure with us, he skillfully handled major responsibilities and found him to be hardworking and very productive.
Mr. XXX job duties and responsibilities include but are not limited to:
� Job duties and responsibilities from resume�
� Job duties and responsibilities from resume�
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Please feel free to contact me for further information.
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{Name}
{Title}
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felix31
06-05 03:16 PM
I agree. Such delays are forcing several professionals to consider Australia and Canada. Its a loss to this country and gain for other countries since they have favourable immigration laws. However it is really tough to uproot ourselves and go some place else and start over. Canada still does not have a good economy and job prospects as in USA, thus the struggle is going to be hard for you if you were to look for a job.
Pappu,
I guess the uprooting thing depends on many other issues....
E. G. My husband changed 6 consulting companies - worked on projects all over US and we lived in 6 US states before finally settling down with the present employer who started hubby's GC.
However the retro thing is ruining everything (just like so many others here - we are not an exception).
In less than a year I will have a state teaching certification and will be just a step or two away from my Masters in ED.
Will that help me? No, sir!
We cant file I-485..and change of status to H1 for me is out of question (been on H4 6yrs).
So, in our case - moving to Canada is much like moving to another State...
Not a big deal...It certainly will not be the first time to rent U-haul. :)
What will be different is that once we land we will both be immigrants, free of employer's grip and never ending retro.
It is true we may not have a job in Canada for some time, but I believe the peace of mind will be priceless..
I dont mind tranfering teaching cert (its possible), even taking a few extra courses if they require me to do so. We can even move gradually, I will find a job first and then he will move.
Both my husband and I care to much for each other to continue suffering in the US, under these conditions. He is not happy, since I suffer professionaly and will only loose whatever skills I am getting now. (Alrready lost too much not working in the past 6 yrs).
If one spouse suffers and is not happy, how can the other be content?
He is under constant pressure of working longer and harder, God forbid new recession and job layoffs - I can't work, so who will support the family?? :eek:
We had enough difficulties in the past and transfered enough companies to finally draw aline and say - this is enough.
I would LOVE to work, BUT - as H4 - I can only dream about that.
Even with Canada's economy not doing so well and other obstacles you mentioned, just being able to work, start our own business is going to give us an enormous relief.
Guys - dont get me wrong, I am all for US green card and we support IV efforts monetarily and otherwise, BUT, if no immigration reform emerges, we will move to Canada.
In the next 2 yrs (while Canadian PR gets processed) we will know exactly how things stand.
Pappu,
I guess the uprooting thing depends on many other issues....
E. G. My husband changed 6 consulting companies - worked on projects all over US and we lived in 6 US states before finally settling down with the present employer who started hubby's GC.
However the retro thing is ruining everything (just like so many others here - we are not an exception).
In less than a year I will have a state teaching certification and will be just a step or two away from my Masters in ED.
Will that help me? No, sir!
We cant file I-485..and change of status to H1 for me is out of question (been on H4 6yrs).
So, in our case - moving to Canada is much like moving to another State...
Not a big deal...It certainly will not be the first time to rent U-haul. :)
What will be different is that once we land we will both be immigrants, free of employer's grip and never ending retro.
It is true we may not have a job in Canada for some time, but I believe the peace of mind will be priceless..
I dont mind tranfering teaching cert (its possible), even taking a few extra courses if they require me to do so. We can even move gradually, I will find a job first and then he will move.
Both my husband and I care to much for each other to continue suffering in the US, under these conditions. He is not happy, since I suffer professionaly and will only loose whatever skills I am getting now. (Alrready lost too much not working in the past 6 yrs).
If one spouse suffers and is not happy, how can the other be content?
He is under constant pressure of working longer and harder, God forbid new recession and job layoffs - I can't work, so who will support the family?? :eek:
We had enough difficulties in the past and transfered enough companies to finally draw aline and say - this is enough.
I would LOVE to work, BUT - as H4 - I can only dream about that.
Even with Canada's economy not doing so well and other obstacles you mentioned, just being able to work, start our own business is going to give us an enormous relief.
Guys - dont get me wrong, I am all for US green card and we support IV efforts monetarily and otherwise, BUT, if no immigration reform emerges, we will move to Canada.
In the next 2 yrs (while Canadian PR gets processed) we will know exactly how things stand.
rogerdepena
08-01 10:17 PM
i guess they are already issuing receipt number for I485 received aug. 1, 2007. so where is mine????
Receipt Number: lin07223500XX
Application Type: I485, APPLICATION TO REGISTER PERMANENT RESIDENCE OR TO ADJUST STATUS
Current Status: Case received and pending.
On August 1, 2007, we received this I485 APPLICATION TO REGISTER PERMANENT RESIDENCE OR TO ADJUST STATUS, and mailed you a notice describing how we will process your case. Please follow any instructions on this notice. We will notify you by mail when we make a decision or if we need something from you. If you move while this case is pending, call customer service. We process cases in the order we receive them. You can use our processing dates to estimate when yours will be done. This case is at our NEBRASKA SERVICE CENTER location. Follow the link below to check processing dates. You can also receive automatic e-mail updates as we process your case. Just follow the link below to register.
EAD:
Receipt Number: lin0722353XXX
Application Type: I765, APPLICATION FOR EMPLOYMENT AUTHORIZATION
Current Status: Case received and pending.
On August 1, 2007, we received this I765 APPLICATION FOR EMPLOYMENT AUTHORIZATION, and mailed you a notice describing how we will process your case. Please follow any instructions on this notice. We will notify you by mail when we make a decision or if we need something from you. If you move while this case is pending, call customer service. We process cases in the order we receive them. You can use our processing dates to estimate when yours will be done. This case is at our NEBRASKA SERVICE CENTER location. Follow the link below to check processing dates. You can also receive automatic e-mail updates as we process your case. Just follow the link below to register.
Receipt Number: lin07223500XX
Application Type: I485, APPLICATION TO REGISTER PERMANENT RESIDENCE OR TO ADJUST STATUS
Current Status: Case received and pending.
On August 1, 2007, we received this I485 APPLICATION TO REGISTER PERMANENT RESIDENCE OR TO ADJUST STATUS, and mailed you a notice describing how we will process your case. Please follow any instructions on this notice. We will notify you by mail when we make a decision or if we need something from you. If you move while this case is pending, call customer service. We process cases in the order we receive them. You can use our processing dates to estimate when yours will be done. This case is at our NEBRASKA SERVICE CENTER location. Follow the link below to check processing dates. You can also receive automatic e-mail updates as we process your case. Just follow the link below to register.
EAD:
Receipt Number: lin0722353XXX
Application Type: I765, APPLICATION FOR EMPLOYMENT AUTHORIZATION
Current Status: Case received and pending.
On August 1, 2007, we received this I765 APPLICATION FOR EMPLOYMENT AUTHORIZATION, and mailed you a notice describing how we will process your case. Please follow any instructions on this notice. We will notify you by mail when we make a decision or if we need something from you. If you move while this case is pending, call customer service. We process cases in the order we receive them. You can use our processing dates to estimate when yours will be done. This case is at our NEBRASKA SERVICE CENTER location. Follow the link below to check processing dates. You can also receive automatic e-mail updates as we process your case. Just follow the link below to register.
syedajmal
07-31 03:53 PM
Option 1 - If she has been out of the USA for a significant amount of time for which you have proof, that time can be recaptured. I did this and recaptured 7 months. And Yes she can work for the time recaptured.
Option 2 - She can leave the country now, before here 6 years finishes, come back later and maybe use her GC or recapture the time that she spent out of the US then.
Hope this helps
Option 2 - She can leave the country now, before here 6 years finishes, come back later and maybe use her GC or recapture the time that she spent out of the US then.
Hope this helps
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